10.11.2009

TMC-01 VIDEO: ANDREAS HASSELBACK VS. DEMITRI TELFAIR

Andreas Hesselback (Tiger Muay Thai) faced Demitri Telfair (Taiwan BJJ) this past weekend at TMC-01 at 165lbs match. Here is the video:

ROUND 1


ROUND 2 & 3



PETITION:

***UPDATE:
The petition has been removed from BJJ-ASIA by request of Tommy Shih for the following reasons.

1. This petition was intended for private viewing for the parties directly involved and not for the public.


2. The 'independent committee' has been dissolved and a resolution is being sought by the promoters and participating parties.

73 comments:

David said...

I went and watched Vova Joann and saw two illegal upkicks. While Vova was working GNP from inside joann gaurd there were two upkicks landing to his face. You can not upkick an opponent striking on their knees.

In this fight it appears that a majority of Demitris strikes while on Andreas back land to the back of the head. The ref warns him several times but never takes a point away.

when will we get qualified mma refs in asia?

Sinclair said...

The ref is one of the guys in this "committee".

I'm going to watch this fight in a minute to refresh my memory, but I expect I'm going to see this:
Andreas for sure had top position on the ground for the majority of the fight- scoring early with elbows opening a big cut on Demitri's head..he took the first round clearly-the rest of the fight had Andreas scoring takedowns and even passing to control positions but not really coming close to finishing despite an arm triangle attempt. Each time Demitri got to his feet he landed that hard strikes that clearly rocked Andreas- plus too occasions where Demitri had his opponent's back and was working hard to finish- it wouldn't have been a surprise if the referee had stopped that match during the first instance when Andreas was doing very little to defend himself against the shots to the head.

At the end of the fight, before the judges came to their decision- Jason Bukich and I (both in Demitri's corner) concluded that the decision could go either way since on the one hand Andreas had more control during the fight, and on the other hand Demitri was more effective when he was in control, coming close to ending the fight on two occasions- I wouldn't have been surprised if the decision went to Andreas.

In a minute I'm going to enjoy watching the footage, but before that I want to say that a better way to voice protest would be to ask for a rematch on more neutral territory (though let me say that Demitri is a foreigner here and I'm pretty certain that the judges could'nt care which foreigner won). Demitri would accept for sure.

I'd also like to add that Andreas is a great martial artist and has the respect of everyone here at Taiwan BJJ/Muay Thai - his coach though? I think Ray is a negative force here in this small but growing MMA and BJJ community- every single promoter and event organizer in the region knows this. The guy was making really offensive comments toward Demitri on facebook running up to the fight and he thinks its 'part of the game' but I say that kind of crap should be left to the fighters if they wish to engage in a pathetic war of cheap insults. A coach should be above this.

It should also need to be noted that The Author of the petition- Tommy Shih has long had issues with Taiwan BJJ has and a known dislike for Demitri based on an altercation back when Tommy was welcome at our club...

I say all this because I want readers to consider where the complaints come from when they read them.

warren said...

i think it's a shame that a petition like this have been made. these two guys had a great fight, both left everything in the cage, fought their hearts out, and won the love and respect from the audience. Andreas and Demitri are both names that the SEA community will not forget after watching their fight, so rob them of this by having a public scrutiny and debate regarding their fight.

If the "suggestions" aren't meant to change the ruling, then why have this public suggestion? doing so may cause more negativity, more controversy, more online heated discussion, and overall possibly hurt the image of these two fighters and promotions in Taiwan.

i firmly believe these two promotions are trying their best to promote the sport, albeit that they aren't profressional in this aspect and aren't at the UFC standard. But any event is bound to have problems and hurdles, and with time, these two will for sure continue to up their level.

Things are easy when there is money. Hire the best referees, the best judges, the best event organizers, heck, you can probably get UFC to have them do a show in taiwan. But i believe these guys are doing their best with what they have.

Tiger Muay Thai said...

Round 1



Ten seconds into the bout, Demitri secures a takedown into Guard of Andreas
Spending one minute in guard, Andreas throws 9 elbows resulting in a cut on the cranium of Demitri. Demitri holds top position for 1:05 landing two punches.

Andreas secures the second takedown of the round. Andreas throws 9 punches and 4 elbows. Demitri throws 3 strikes during this 1:10 segment of the round.
---Andreas passes guard and spends 1:15 landing 1 knee, 6 punches, and 4 elbows from side control.

Demitri returns to his feet with 20 seconds in the round. He throws 9 punches and a knee. Andreas returns with 4 punches during this brief exchange, and defends a takedown attempt by Demitri, finishing the round in front headlock position.

Key points:

Andreas:
Spends 3 minutes on top. Passed guard for an extended period of time (1:15). Attempted 33 strikes.

Demitri:
Spends 1 minute on top, never passing guard. Attempted 15 strikes. Demitri is a bloody mess after an elbow causes a cut on the head.

Anonymous said...

Scoring Considerations

1. There was no standup striking action that could have dictated the score of this round.

2. Andreas spent more time in top control, attempted more strikes (strikes from top control also weigh heavier than those from bottom due to difference in the power disparity) Andreas’s time spent past the guard, also lends to the scoring advantage as per grappling/control criteria

3. Demitri was cut by an elbow in this round. We would argue that Andreas inflicted more damage during this round.

Tiger Muay Thai Scoring: 10-9 Andreas

Round 2

Andreas secures the first takedown, :15 into the round. Andreas attempts 3 elbows, Demitri 1 body punch. :35 later, Andreas passes to mount. And :10 later, Andreas takes the back, landing 2 elbows in the transition.

Demitri runs to ½ guard, Andreas throws 2 elbows. Demitri replaces guard, Andreas passes to ½ guard again. 2 more elbows and a punch, as Andreas passes to Mount near 2 minutes into the round.

Arm Triangle (Head and Arm Choke) attempt by Andreas. 2 punches by Andreas.

2:17 in round, Demitri returns to standing, and is pushed into the cage. Andreas 2 foot stomps and 3 elbows, and Demitri attempts 13 soft blows.

3:15, Demitri defends takedown attempt and secures back control, with hooks.

---In 1:15 in back control, Demitri throws 55 less than powerful strikes. 20, we have estimated, land to the back of the head (illegal striking zone as described in the rules meeting) This is 36% of the total.
---The referee issues four verbal warnings- visible on the fight footage to Demitri. No point deduction. What is the procedure here??? How many warnings warrant a deduction? Please note that the referee did not attend the rules meeting on the day of the event. In fact, only 4 of 10 competitors were present.

Andreas reverses the position with :30 in the round. He passed guard and was working for knee on belly position as the round came to a close.

Key points:

Andreas: 1 takedown into side control. 3 times in mount, and 2x in back control. Head and Arm Submission attempt, and 14 striking attempts. 2:30 spent in top control, both beginning and finishing the round in the top position.

Demitri:
1 takedown to Back Control, that resulted in little damage and 4 Referee Warnings. 1:15 in top control, 69 strike attempts.
Near 30% of the total strike attempts, we have judged as landing in the illegal striking area (back of head).



1. Andreas had the advantage in total time spent in top control (1-minute advantage) He was very dominant in attaining/maintaining the dangerous back control and mount positions. Andreas began and finished the round in top control, and was effective in passing guard. Demitri spent good time in back control, but was not effective in damaging Andreas and made no submission attempts.

2. Point Deduction for “Strikes to the back of the head”. Referee gave 4 verbal warnings. What is the promotions procedure here? Note: Referee was not in attendance at the promotion’s rules meeting. It was explained to those in attendance that after the second verbal warning from an illegal strike a point would be deducted.

3. There was no striking exchange that would come into consideration in this round.

Tiger Muay Thai Scoring


10-10 without considering the Referee’s Warnings.

10-9 Andreas, if:

1. The Referee’s Warnings would serve to discount the 20 strikes to the back of the head. Without those particular strikes scoring points, we believe Andreas clearly wins the round due to his top control advantage, damage inflicted, and bout control as he began and finish the round with advantageous position
.
2. The number of warnings by the referee (4, in this round) before a point is deducted on judges’s scorecards.

Tiger Muay Thai said...

Round 3

Andreas secures a takedown :25 seconds into the round, gaining side control without seeing Demitri’s guard. Andreas spends 1 minute on top before Demitri replaces guard. During that time, 17 body punches by Demitri and 2 elbows by Andreas.

Another :50 on top sees 23 punches by Demitri from bottom/14 from Andreas on top, before Andreas passes guard, secures Mount Position, and attempts a Head and Arm Choke. Andreas throws 9 strikes from Mount, 3 being scoring elbows.

Demitri works back to his guard and eventually to his feet. With one minute left in the bout, Demitri throws 3 punches and a flying knee. Andreas shoots, Demitri defends and attempts 3 punches and a knee to the body. Demitri secures the back, attempts 6 strikes (Back of head, again?) Demitri moves from back control to Mount Position, allowing Andreas to bump into top control and finish the fight in the guard of Demitri.

Key points:

Andreas: Spends a total of 3:25 in top control, leaving only 1 minute left in the bout after totally controlling the round. 25 strike attempts, 5 were strong elbows.

Demitri: Attempted 38 punches from bottom during the first 4 minutes of the round. He attempts only 17 strikes during the last minute of the bout, with only 9 coming from the top position, where he spent :40 during the last minute of the fight.



Scoring Considerations

1. Andreas began and finished the final round, in top control. He held a 2-minute advantage in total time spent in top control. He, again, attained dominant position (Mount).
2. Demitri’s punch count is higher, thanks to 38 punches from bottom that could not be deemed as damaging. Andreas inflicted another cut (requiring stitches for Demitri) during this round. It is our opinion that the striking scoring would be near even in this round, as both fighters held advantage during portions of the round.




Bout Summary:

Round 1, Andreas dominated. A 10-9 here is clear cut and undeniable by current Int’l standards of MMA scoring.

Round 2, we have a valid argument for a point deduction on the judges’ scorecards. We feel that this round could not have been won by Demitri. We also see an argument for a 10-10, even round.

Round 3 was dictated/controlled by Andreas also. He began and finished the round in top control. Striking numbers are a wash, as Demitri’s punch count is higher but filled with weak blows from bottom. Andreas’s top striking was of a higher quality and therefore score (as we feel was the case in each round).


We have expressed displeasure with the lack of understanding of procedure, by the referee, promoter, and judges----concerning the illegal blow warnings.

We were not given access to the scorecards, anytime after the decision was announced. I have seen situations where scorecards were written on by more than one person, and have had judges misunderstand the procedure. These occurrences lead to mistakes, due to the pressure to read a decision and present a winner to the crowd. I do not point a finger toward foul play, but transparency with the scorecards would have been appreciated.

During the bout, a cut was suffered in Round 1. Rounds 2 and 3 saw Demitri come from his corner with an obnoxious amount of vasaline covering his wound. We’re all for closing a wound, and minimizing blood. However, there is a concern for the integrity of the grappling aspect of the bout. The introduction of excessive lubricants has been frowned upon. The Vaseline is quite visible from our video. We attempted two “head and arm” submissions. Could an un-greased surface allowed for a finish?

Tiger Muay Thai said...

Official Response to Illegal Strikes.

Frank Mir vs. Brock Lesnar.-UFC


Referee Steve Mazzagatti’s actions:

A) Stops the fight to issue a clear warning to both athletes
B) Motions for a point deduction
C) Re-starts the fight standing.

Link to verify: http://ballhype.com/story/lesnar_loses_ufc_debut_mir_absorbs_hammerfists_cranks/


Malaipet vs. Denny-EliteXC


Official Actions:

A) Stops the fight, issues fouled fighter 5 minutes to recover.
B) After 5 minutes, fouled fighter does not choose to continue
C) Referee awards an official decision, via Disqualification, to the fouled fighter.


Links to verify:
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Mongkhon-Wiwasuk-17657

http://www.mma-zone.com/2008/denny-wins-by-first-round-disqualification-over- malaipet/


Vova vs. Yohann-Taiwan MMA

Yohann Vovo striking from knees, Yohann lands illegal upkicks causing much damage to Vova.

There was no interjection from the referee.

A) This example of an error in officiating, was used as the subject and example in considering the penalties for rules violations during the TMC-01 rules meeting.
B) It was agreed upon that the first occurrence would be a verbal warning
C) 2nd occurrence would result in a stop in action, that could allow for the 5 minute recovery period and/or points deduction. This answer was relayed via “Tien” as a translator.


******The referee for the Hesselback bout was not present at the event’s official rules meeting. This error in procedure, pre-bout, led to an error in procedure during the event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FUqdEa5ie4

In this bout the Referee did not follow the guidelines set forth by the rules committee. The exact procedure to a referee’s reaction to repeated illegal strikes was asked to emphasis the exact procedures utilized in the TMC-01 promotion.

During the bout, the referee issued four verbal warnings. In one instance, he made physical contact with the combatants. However, at no point did he completely halt the action. His warnings were not, and could not have been clear and decisive. Warning #1 was understood, surely. Action should have been taken, of not on verbal warning #2, but #3….#4. Bout must be stopped, and action taken by the referee to recognize/penalize the recurring infraction. (This infraction was for the same exact infraction, no action was taken by the combatant (Demitri) to change his offensive tactic. Demitri was warned by the referee on four occasions, while throwing 30% of his strikes to an illegal target (Center line of spine, back of head/neck). These strikes were minimal in power, but should not be included in round tallies for punches landed simply because of the illegality of the placement, 1 out of every 3 punches thrown landed on the “Mohawk” region of the skull.

Tiger Muay Thai said...

Did Demitri and Taiwan BJJ attend the official rules meeting held at 4pm?

What about the official weigh ins the day before the match held at 730pm?

Did the ref attend the rules meeting?

Can you visibly see vasoline gooped on the fighters face?

In the video watch the ref warn Demitri 4 separate occasions about strikes to the back of the head.

While we feel Andreas won the fight...

at the very least it should be ruled a No Contest with a mandatory rematch--->allowing both fighters to continue their professional career without penalty.

Andreas Hesselback said...

Just want to make one thing clear!

I'm in NO WAY interested nor trying to get a cheap win out of this!

I just want it to be declared a no-contest or a draw, which neither reflects positive or negative in our records, and followed by a RE-MATCH in the next event!

/Andreas Hesselback

David said...

I have not fought in Taiwan yet but am curious if any of the fighters were required to submit HIV or HEP blood tests?

I thought the Mingwu event was without elbows on the ground? When did TMC decide to include elbow strikes to a grounded opponent?

Anonymous said...

David, that is another point of interest.

I am not sure we've met. email if you want more details.

magicalray@aol.com

As far as the elbows rule goes...

We went to the rules meeting and were told no Elbows on the ground. Originally I argued that we had agreed to fight with elbows on the ground, to which we were told that while "TMC" is a new promotion it was still being conducted under the same format as "Ming Wu" and that elbows would not be allowed.

During the rules meeting it was explained that the addition of elbows could not be added on the day of the event without a commitee approval.

3 hours later we get a phone call to our hotel room telling us that it was time to head to the stadium for the fights, and that Taiwan BJJ requested elbow strikes on the ground and that they were now going to be legal. Literally informed us less than an hour before the fights began.

...Andreas and Wiktor both showcased the dangers of elbows utilizing them effectively in their fights.

Andreas and Wiktor both brought blood work but it was never collected, and we were told none of the other fighters had the required documentation.

This fight should be an easy No Contest claim.

David said...

Sinclair I think Ray is one of the more professional MMA icons in Southeast Asia.

This appeal seems well thought out and professional citing prior references and the actual fight footage.

I think having veterans like Ray in the region who know how to help a promotion grow and become more professional is important. I bet these mistakes will prevent this from happening in Taiwan in the future.

IMO this was a classy move by Ray. He didn't make a big deal at the venue and backed his claims up with legit citations within 24 hours. I was at the event and thought Demitri won a home town Dec. This could be a stepping stone for legitamizing MMA in Southeast Asia.

We need an MMA federation or commission that can govern these events.

LUKE said...

What are the requirements to form a legitimate governing-body for MMA in Taiwan, let alone Southeast Asia?

And how does this governing-body remain objective in both local and international level?

There were similar last minute rule changes at our amateur event that may have potentially effected the outcome of a match. So it's not uncommon but now that we've recognized the problem, how and who will take steps to regulate such disputes and make transparent the rules/regulations of MMA in Taiwan?

Anonymous said...

full results and videos would be nice!!
/Chris

Anonymous said...

Mr Tommy Shih seems to be heading this petition and using the case to push for an MMA committee.

However, although I agree with the points made I find it ironic that Mr Shih is in this "independent committee" and talking about giving" the fight promoter, TMC a recommendation on how to act in this case" when he had a very big hand in organising the event, being on skype with Mr Hsiung frequently and directing things from Sweden. he even refers to himself as "ex-referee of Ming Wu" and not as the main advisor for the promotion, which he actually was.

It seems to me that he is distancing himself from the poor officiating and poor organization of the refereeing and judging aspect of this event.

Anonymous said...

Good fight for sure. Hopefully they can re-match soon.

What were the comments Elbe made about Demitri exactly? Just wondering.

Anonymous said...

Both fighters gave it their all and it could have gone either way depending on how you judged it. To have a "independent committee" to give "suggestions" on how this fight should have been judged, I think, is a real underhanded and insulting way of saying Demitri had no business winning that fight. What makes the people on this "independent committee" more qualified to give a proper judgment on the fight than the judges they had at the actual event? Also, now every time someone has a problem with a decision they are going to form a committee and "re-evaluate" the decision? C'mon that's ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

I don't think the only complaints raised were dealing with the scoring of the bout.

It looks like Ray is bringing up three seperate complaints.

1. scoring- the post by Tiger Muay Thai legitimizes the questions about the point score. I am curious if the Demitri's point total included all those strikes to the back of the head? If you subtract those illegal strikes from his punch total, Andreas wins handidly.

2. Rules infraction proceedure. Ray is protesting the fact that the agreed rules to govern the safety of the fighters was not followed. It is obvious in the video that the ref points 4 seperate times at the fighters while demitri is striking to the back of the head.

3. Vasoline. You have to admit that you have never seen a UFC fight close a cut with that amount of Vasoline. GSP-Penn was almost turned into a No Contest because of complaints of Vasoline use.

taking all three of those arguments into consideration, and looking at how close the fight was any of those options could have been the reason for the home town dec.

It doesn't seem like Demitri would want a cheap win out of this and would be willing to take the NC with a mandatory rematch as well.

Personally after reading the Tiger posts and rewatching the video I don't understand how Demitri's hand was raised. Demitri won less than 4 minutes of the fight.

A no contest seems like a fair solution. In most countries these fights are governed by the boxing commission and without their involvment promoters-refs-and local gyms are given too much power of the integrity of the sport.

Kyle Brees- King Of The Cage veteran.

Anonymous said...

"In most countries these fights are governed by the boxing commission..."

Only a handful of jurisdictions have any kind of sanctioning body for mma. There is no sanctioning in most US states, Japan, Brazil, etc., much less somewhere like Taiwan where the sport is just starting out. How this fight would have been scored in the UFC is hardly relevant.

Anonymous said...

Kyle,

With all due respect, aren't you one of Rey Elbe's former training partners and his friend? Not trying to qualify what you are saying, but let's be clear here.

Best case for all, just have them do a re-match. Two good competitors for sure.

Anonymous said...

Hey, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. People need to deal with this fact of life and stop complaining. Its only one fight. I'm sure there will be others.

Jason said...

The fact that there be other fights is irrelevant professional sports have review processes.

Andreas won that fight. uneducated judges is not an excuse to damage a professional fighters pro record. Amateur fights is one thing, but a pro record last an entire career.

4 visible warnings for strikes to the back of the head and no warning from the ref. That needs to be a NC. Demetri Andreas need to fight again. The fight should have been stopped due to the cut before that amount of vaseline was allowed to be put on the fighter returning to the bout.

Anonymous said...

It's very clear. Demitri had better damage but Andreas had better control. Andreas had good control but couldn't not capitalize, whereas Demitri capitalized every moment he got. It could have gone either way but my opinion is fights should be judged on damage.

Anonymous said...

Well what I take from this is that rules - consistent, transparent rules known to both parties a reasonable period of time before a match (not hours before) can really influence the scoring and outcome of a match.

And reffing and judging is important.

I'm glad this is coming out so that promotions can be more professional and transparent in the future.

I hope that the safety of the fighters is always paramount as well.

Jeff Faberman said...

The Ref was not in the rules meeting and he did not follow the proper rules infraction procedure. This fight was a NC from that point.

Anonymous said...

First of all, I thought it was a great fight and both fighters deserve a of respect.
Second of all, I don't know who Andreas' coach was but he sounds like an absolute dick. How is it that a coach talks more trash than his own fighter? I was at the event - what loser scatters his career 'highlights' all over the arena beforehand? Anyway, kudos to both fighters for being warriors and acting like men by keeping everything in the ring. Maybe a certain coach can learn something from his own student...

Dave said...

I thought it was cool Ray had promotional material. I took home several trading cards and he autogrpahed a poster for me. I wish more fighters in Asia could give a fan something for free.

He also gave me a Tiger Muay Thai T-shirt while he was at the event.

I can see why the UFC wanted him on the Ultimate Fighter.

I agree he was loud while coaching and should work on that, but he was no worse than Marc Laimon and as a professional fighter sometmes your gonna have to deal with opposition like that.

Anonymous said...

How many of the posters on this thread are Ray Elbe in disguise? So thinly veiled it's just laughable!

This takes away a lot of the value from what might be a credible complaint and ultimately amounts to shitting where he eats.

I promote a fairly successful MMA event in a place that falls into the catchment area of this blog, and I have already blacklisted Tiger Muay Thai because of this since I just don't think, based on my discussions with other promoters in the region, alongside Ray's astounding display of self- promotion and unprofessional conduct at a recent meeting in Singapore between significant figures in the region's MMA community and ESPN.

Anonymous said...

...that he is someone my organization wants to have any further dealings with.

Damien said...

All in all it was a great fight but i cannot see how andreas did not get the decision out of this one! No disrespect to Demitri he fought a great fight but if you are judging on control Andreas was on top and in control for the vast majority of the fight! And in terms of damage well it speaks for itself if you watch the fight. I for one would love to see a re match to get this settled!

Will said...

Great fight...sign me up for rematch tickets. With all the controversy, the fighters stand to make hundreds!

Seriously, I think Adreas controlled the fight more, but Demetri was more exciting and did more when he was in control.

I understand the objections from Tiger Muay Thai, but nothing much can be done about the decision. Andreas is certainly a much better fighter than his official record indicates, which must be frustrating.

I do think that the vaseline and rules issues should at least be addressed in some official capacity.

Will said...

Also, can someone please enlighten me about Tommy Shih's background. Is he an MMA fighter? Apparently, he works as an MMA ref, trainer, promoter consultant and then he makes ad hoc committees to address the decision controversies? I am kind of curious since he has thrown his name out into this whole thing.

Tommy said...

Since I "put my name out there" I might as well respond. But technically speaking it was Ray Elbe that put my name out there. The summary of the petition I wrote was never intended for public viewing (but I guess Ray and I misunderstood each other), it was only intended for the parties involved.

Yes, I am the person that is plotting world domination, and trying to become the self-proclaimed Don King of MMA. Or maybe that was in another life.

No I am actually a university professor, with a BJJ brown belt (which I received after four years of training. I am by far no BJ Penn but noone has ever questioned my rank) and a Judo black belt in a country far far away from Taiwan. Does this make me qualified to be a ref, judge, committee head etc. No I don't think so. I did this as a favour to a promoter and a friend trying to promote mma in a country where a BJJ blue belt is considered advanced. I was the only person with a BJJ brown/black belt in Taiwan which spoke Chinese. The promoter does not speak English, and he needed advice and help on how to promote his event. I have not collected any money for helping him with his promotion, nor will I do that. I have a job that pays reasonably well, so I am doing this because I want to promote a sport I love to train and watch in a country which I am originally from. Unfortunately there are not a lot of qualified people around to do this, if there were I would gladly leave it to them. So I agreed to help after being asked by the promoter of TMC.

For this event the TMC promoter personally asked me to help him, find fighters from other countries than Taiwan. So I contacted Ray Elbe because I have met him before. Earlier I helped the same promoter, in another promotion named MingWu, as a referee. I made mistakes as a referee because I am not trained for it and there were times I thought others should do it. But in a country such as Taiwan there is not exactly raining qualified referees and judges, as was evident in this event. I have full respect for them though because they tried their best and they did it for the love of the sport. That they did not have enough preparation or experience though is something which needs to be addressed. So I hope that this incident could lead to some positive feedback on how to improve the situation. The promoter is already thinking about quitting, he has not made any money at all so far, and he gets criticized from all kinds of directions. I think we should all be encouraging and make him understand the problems, so that the next event can be improved. I certainly don't want to take away the little self confidence he has left.

TonyE said...

Awesome fight. They are both great warriors.
Hopefully we will see a re-match soon.
I know Andreas very well and believe he will give no chance for a judges decision next time.

Tommy said...

At any rate, so back to the issue. My only participation in this event was to help find fighters and answer occasional questions the promoter had (since the promoter does not speak English, and Ray does not speak Chinese, I was the middlehand in their correspondence). But I am in a different country for god's sake with a full-time job, I cannot do anything else than just provide limited assistance. Any speculation that I am running the whole show, which is bleeding money, from skype in a country far far away, spending my whole days, neglecting my real job, my wife and training, and directing the efforst of my soldiers, which all have their day-time jobs, could perhaps become a good novel someday, but that theory is nothing more than fiction. Perhaps the author should contact a doctor to make sure he/she doesn't suffer from paranoia. My real life involves a very busy day-job, training when I get back home and some time with my wife in the evening. So I am sorry to disappoint anyone thinking I am aiming for world dominance. Actually I found it more fun last week to roll with Leo Viera and 8 other BJJ black belts, than to stay on skype and plot sinister plans to take over a bleeding mma promotion. Sorry if I sound ironic here, but I just find some of the posts ridiculous.

Anyways, so now when we established my role leading up to TMC 01, I can tell you what happened afterwards. I have no clue of what happened, I had no part in deciding the ref, judges (exceept for one, the two others I don't even know) which were chosen by the promoter. On Saturday morning, I woke up and checked my mail like I always do. To my surprise I found several emails from Ray Elbe describing to me what happened and filing several objections. My first thought was: What does this got to do with me. Don't come to me I didn't do this. But then he explained that because of the language confusion the promoter had advised him to contact me directly and state his objections. The reason being that I had been the intermediary between the two of them earlier. So I DID NOT CHOOSE THIS, NOR DID I WANT TO HAVE THIS RESPONSIBILITY. If someone else wants this honor, I will gladly hand it over and run. I also wrote an email to the promoter explaining how upset I was that this responsibility had been given to me because of the simple reason that I was available, somewhat knowledgable, and because both Ray and the promoter trusted me. So both the promoter and Ray were telling me "you make the decision". I will tell everyone, I was not amused but who would do it otherwise? Should I just leave it because I had no part in it, and risking giving TMC and Taiwan a really bad reputation (and letting think that Demitri won because of biased judges) or should I try and make the best of the situation? Since I did not want to make the decison myself I suggested a committee should established and we would find three independent judges (not ourselves). I thought in vain that a committee would be better suited than me, myself and I in making order out of a mess.

Tommy said...

So making a long story short. I have talked to all parties involved, and informed them about exactly what happened, and I think everybody involved understands the situation. There is no more need for speculations and conspiracy theories. An official statement will be done by TMC later (which is not my responsibility). The committee is dissolved and we did unfortunatley not achieve world dominance. We didn't have to make a decision, nor was it ever ours to make.

This incident has unfortunately had a regressive effect on MMA in Taiwan. What I learned is that there is a lot of mistrust and testosterone floating around. Probably not a lot of people really care about what I wrote but I just needed to voice my opinion after seeings so many unconstructive posts. I think we should all be discussing and debating what we could do to improve the situation, so that mma in the SEA region can continue to improve. With quality refs, judges, fighters, promotions etc. The discussion here has been misplaced. My damn background is not interesting here, we need some constructive discussion.

Mr Tommy Shih in front of Skype

Anonymous said...

Demitri is taiwan's mma prospect,lmao.obviously the level there is very low. Andreas destroyed him and obviously has more losses than Demitri because of quality of opposition.

chris said...

Wow after watching that fight there is no doubt in my mind that andreas won that fight. Dimitri is a good fighter but he lost. Im not sure what happend with the judges but there were definatly mistakes made. 4 warnings for strikes to the back of the head? In the states he would have gotten one warning and the second time they would have stoped the fight for recovery time and a point deduction. And Dimitri new he was hitting him in the back of the head. We are all fighters and i know when im doing something illegal. Because it wasnt stopped he kept on doing it. I train at Easton BJJ in denver colorado and we have alot of great fighters in my academy like Elliot Marshall, Brendan Schaub, And Tyrone Glover plus Amal Easton. And they would all say the same thing about this fight. Ray brought up alot of valid complaints and some of you are just trying to bash him for that? Thats just childish. This is the fight game. Some of you guys need to grow a pair. Dimitri got a home town decision just admit it and lets move on to the rematch.

Bo said...

I personally hope this leads Taiwan in the direction of a proper commission that trains and prepares judges and refs. I know its still far in the future though. So maybe until then the 3 Taiwanese promotions can get together and make some agreements about rules and preperation. Not always easy to agree with your competition but its for Taiwan's reputation, the good of the sport, and possibly its survival on the island.

Anonymous said...

Best comment thread ever. Great to hear Shih's side. What a mess! Hope it all works out for everyone in Taiwan.

Anonymous said...

Hey actions speak louder than words. Ray's arguments are coherent and convincing. It sounds like under a more experienced reff'ng systems, his student would have won. At least there is a record now based on a detailed commentary on the videos.

It's not like Ray said "lousy promotion, I'll never go there again" he just said here's why he disagrees. And backed it up with detailed arguments.

I can't believe Elbe gets so much hate because he is, literally, loud, and does support his students. I have yet to see unprofessional or unsportsmanlike conduct from him. Until that day, he's worth hearing out, regardless of volume.

Ben said...

- As an objective viewer, I was also surprised that Andreas didn't win the decision

- I agree that better reffing is always desireable, but honestly, is there any place in Asia (outside of Japan) where the match could not have taken place? Let's face it, MMA is still in its infancy when it comes to institutionalization in the region. Don't think Taiwan should be singled out for blame...

- A no contest would be sensible

- I don't feel like these decisions needed to be discussed to such an extent on a public place like the internet by TMT, although I understand their position.

Ben said...

By "could not have taken place" I mean, where such mistakes could not also have happened...

Anonymous said...

Ray's actions do speak louder than words.
So ask him how many times he told the promotion he would take his fighters home unless he got what he wanted. The second he arrived in Taiwan, he wanted additional money for food during their stay in Taiwan. Also ask him how he had a tantrum fit and insisted on having the fight card order changed so he wouldn't have to corner his guys in back to back fights or he'll pull his fighters out. And ask him how he argued for the opposing corner to have only one corner man because he came alone, or he'll tell his guys not to fight. the list goes on, yes he is truly a professional and an icon in mma in the region. oh btw, also ask him how many times he turned down fights because he only wanted easy fights that he does not have to train and can win, so he can make his record look good for the UFC. it's a shame because his guys are really cool, I understand he wants what is best for his guys, but this isn't professional.

Anonymous said...

Funny thing is, all the things you mention actually make sense...in a good way.

Anonymous said...

diego sanchez, charuto, donnie liles, erik apple, rich moss, thomas kenney, thomas denny, damarques johnson, all 8 of those fights are against UFC level fighters.he has fought his fare share of tough fights. I dont think hes afraid of a tough fight if the payday warrants it.

i just saw his name as part of a 4 man 170lbs tournament here in brisbane australia in Feb. all of those fighters will be tough.

i think he is more worried about managing a career than taking tough fights for no money. Lots of fighters turn down fights that don't build their career. that shouldn't look bad on them.

*jonn* said...

I find it hilarious that the majority of the people posting negative comments about someone or something or rather, all come from one person - anonymous (or so it would seem).

Seriously, if you're going to post grow a set of balls, instead of being an e-thug, and hiding behind a mysterious name (anonymous no less), post your real name, don't be a punk kid.

And another thing, who cares about Rey Elbe. He wasn't the one getting cheated out of a win. It's just a team, whereas for Andreas its life.

Andreas, the ref screwed the pooch, and you.

This fight is a definite no contest.

And just for fun, since I'm trying to start world war 3, i might as well throw this on the proverbial fire.

Even if Rey is a dick, he does what he feels it takes to get something decent going in MMA in SEA. Whatever he says and does is at his own discretion. Whether you like it or not shouldn't have an impact on what and who may be really nice people within his team/camp.

One rotten apple does not destroy the whole damn bunch. This isn't Karate Kid 1 or 3 (as in no Cobra kai karate whatever BS), grow up little boys, grow up!

Anonymous said...

From the point of view of entertainment controversy and arguments about decisions are fantastic. From the point of view of personal development the building of friendships and most importantly public respect for what we do. Self restraint and a philosophical perspective on winning and losing is probably healthier. I like both but personally i would choose a path that makes the fighter stronger mentally and more respected.It is a bit more stoic. I wouldn't have the confidence to be very vocal in my protests for fear of turning the whole thing into a circus even if that's how to make more money! But I also think vie la difference!

Val said...

It would be good if the MMA community could start up a thread in Taiwanbjj.org/facebook or forumosa, discussing a set of unified MMA rules and to also look at having some kind of meeting down the line to finalise things.

The people off the top of my head who I think are the best qualified (to be refs or who can train other people to be refs) so far are Bukich (Ming Wu), M Berger (Taichung), T Shih (TS Dojo), W Wang (TW BJJ), G Preston (Evolution), Sinclair (TWBJJ) and maybe some people down here (in the south) like K Harris or any of the experienced fighters (James/Hanz etc.). (No offence meant to people I've not mentioned, although I like them personally, I feel they need to at least watch some more MMA before they are even trained by the others).
I hope these people I have mentioned can take the initiative and start some kind of ref/judging comittee and discuss ways in which MMA in Taiwan can be better organised.
These are just some of my thoughts from being around the MMA community, I don't actually hold any authority by the way as I'm just a beach bum!
So how about it? Can we get a thread going? Can we have a meeting?

warren said...

val..
good points about the commitee.
actually a commitee in training refs and judges was started before the PRO fighting event at luxy, and i think the same staff was used at the TMC show. however, it'll take time for them to mature. they've asked me to be a part of it but i've been too busy with my clinic to help out.
i think with time the promotors and organization will continue to improve.

LUKE said...

Let me know when a thread has begun on www.taiwanbjj.org to discuss the forming of a committee dedicated to the training/education of refs/judges for MMA in Taiwan, let alone Southeast Asia.

I believe we can turn this incident into a constructive turning point for the Taiwan MMA scene.

Jem said...

Wow. I guess dialogue can lead to growth which is what is hopeful out of this situation.

Just one thing i'd like to add. i don't believe this is the space to throw personal insults at Ray such as commentating on his fight career. He is a fighter. Enough said. A fighter is a fighter no matter what and it takes something to get in the ring no matter if you are amateur or pro. There is no such thing as an 'easy' fight.

There's no need to throw insults such as these around. There is no constructive message there.

And yes, Ray is a friend of mine but this thought extends to anyone, anywhere.

Bo said...

Val, I love the idea of getting the more experienced players in a room together to make some things official. I just think it'll be a while before anything they put together will have any legal standing in Taiwan. So until then I think it would be really beneficial to get the 3 existing promotions (PRO Fighting, TMC, Ming Wu) involved in the process so there's an agreement that whatever is decided will actually be followed.

To all those in favor of moving things ahead, get your emails and your facebook rockin and lets make it happen.

Royal said...

This is Royal from PRO Fighting MMA.

I was made aware of this ongoing discussion earlier and decided to check things out. Very interesting comments and remarks.

1st of all, much respect to both fighters, as they're the ones who actually stepped into the cage and lost blood. I know Demitri, he is a warrior, a gamer at anytime. And, by the looks of it, Andreas is down right a beast.

I'd be honored to have either fighter fight in my promotions sometime in the future.

All that aside, being one of the promoters of MMA in Taiwan, I've learned quite a bit. The list goes on and on.

As the promoter, I do hear both sides of many discussions. I've heard about Tommy's ordeal, I've heard about Ray's stuff and even seen the facebook stuff he put up, I've heard about other schools talking shit about other schools, but acting like best friends in front of each other at competitions. In this discussion, let's try to keep the slander and disrespectful comments about and towards one another to a good zero. Martial arts teaches us to respect.

The whole point of the discussion is how we can better MMA in Taiwan. Mainly, the officiatig and judging here. Like Warren said, I have been trying to put together a referee and judges committee. The one thing that's tough is finding qualified people. since MMA is so new here, it leaves almost no one qualified, except for some coaches, who get shit for being officials, cuz another coach or fighter will blame them for favoring fighters. It's a small freakin' circle.

What I have done is tried to get neutral people from various established martial arts associations, who do have a grasp on MMA and try to train them how to officiate. We've had meetings going over the rules and techniques, we've watched videos, & tonight, we had another meeting to discuss what went wrong in PRO Fighting 2.

It doesn't take a hundred ppl to tell us the reffing was horrible for us to know. We're at the fights too, it's obvious! However, if you don't start from somewhere, then you're on route to no where. As long as we keep improving that's all that matters. If we can progress, then we will get there eventually.

Honestly, as in the 1st PRO Fighting event, I had a ref who knew everything about the rules of mma and did the most talking during the judges and referee mtg. but he called a match and declared a fighter a winner, when his opponent didn't even tap or was nowhere close to passing out. My point being is, some people get nervous when they're on stage with hundreds of people badgering them, while trapped in a cage and spotlights shining down on them.
You may know all the rules, but sometimes the pressure gets the best of you. How do you fix that? By gaining more experience!!!
TO BE CONT'D...

Royal said...

In my last event, one ref made a horrible call as he was concerned of the fighter's safety. People were climbing on the cage, people were prepared to throw chairs, and nearly everybody in the building were holding up their middle fingers, yelling "bullshit!!!". Luckily, i had written a rule that states the requirements to overturning referee mess ups and the fight was continued. i'm not excusing his fuck up though because he really fucked up and that potentially played a crucial role in the outcome of the match. Here's my point to this paragraph though. After undergoing such hostile and intimidating scrutiny by the fans, the ref was traumatized. By the next match, he made the correct call, as one fighter did not intelligently defend himself, taking 10 blows to the face from side control without moving or changing defense. Immediately, the crowd started yelling, "What!?!", and he was afraid to stick to his decision that he knew was correct. Only to make the fans happy, did we restart the fight again, all the while we had a medic onsite saying the fighter's cut was pretty severe and that it might not be worth it to continue.
Eventually the same fighter lost about a minute later due to doctor stoppage. If this ref had experience, he would have had the confidence to know he made the right call earlier & to standby his decision. If it was all that controversial, we had the guidelines to overturn it, if the certain requirements were met. In continuing to fight, we risked both fighters safety, one fighter opening his gash up more, while the other fighter fractured his eye socket.

Some fighters get so nervous, they forget how to fight, even if they're the biggest badass in their gym. Many Pro's lose their debut match in the UFC. It's nerves and EXPERIENCE.

Look how Art of War does it, cuz they don't have qualified officials, it's a draw if you don't knockout or submit your opponent, even if you dominated. What happens then is you may have one event in Macao and have 6 draws in a night, and by then the fans are booing like crazy. U can't please everyone.
TO BE CONTINUED...

Royal said...

We're comparing Taiwan's industry to 15 years of MMA in the US and Japan. MMA's not even been here for 2 yrs. We should be comparing it to UFC 1 and 2. Much like those times, fans here don't even understand submission holds, just like when Royce Gracie was winning fights with guillotine chokes during the birth of UFC.

I'm down for a committee of some sort. That's what I've been trying to do. Do I think that Ray has professional experience?? I know so. Do I think it's fair for Ray to expect Taiwan to be on par with the UFC? Absolutely not. Does it help when he tells us how UFC does things?? Of Course. Does it help if he never brings his quality fighters back to Taiwan? Hell no. So no matter how much you like someone or dislike someone, sometimes you need to put personal issue aside for the betterment of a bigger cause.

We're doing shows here in front of maybe 500 ppl, trying to build the industry. I was actually saddened at the TMC event, not to see it very successful. Competing organizations are good for the sport, as they bring more frequent exposure and coverage of MMA. but, after TMC's event, people were saying, "They're finished, done for sure." I know they made me step up my game, as I know i did there's.

Right now, I wish everyone could just take from this discussion to ease up a bit & show support for the MMA industry out here. How can we help it grow???

Talking about forming a committee helps.

Does talking about who's a dick or has a little dick or eats dick, help? Not at all. Even though everyone has the right to their opinion. Shit, I know I do for sure.

Since day 1, I'm proud for being a part of the growth of MMA in Taiwan, and that's where my focus is.

Andreas vs Demitri II would be awesome anywhere!!!

Royal said...

Sorry so random and unorganized guys!!! It's f'ing 430am!!!
Good night.

Anonymous said...

You know what, if the promotions can afford the train fare up, there is a good group of neutral people down south who could do the job :P

Val said...

sorry, that was me with the above comment

The Animal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Animal said...

Round 1;
Andreas was doing most of the work with effective elbows and punches. He was able to control Demitri in a butterfly guard pretty well too (2.21 mins into the match)

Andreas was stacking Demitri at 3.51 min and was raining effective blows at Demitri. Another sign of dominance by Andreas at 6.07 min where he was controling Demitri in a side mount with elbow strikes.

At 6.42 min, Demitri managed to break free and swings at Andreas but misses.
6.50 min onwards, Demitri was striking more but none were too effective on Andreas.
6.56 min, Demitri goes for a take down but Andreas reacted with a sprawl and subsequent pinning Demitri to the ground.

Verdict of round 1, Andreas win. He was in dominant position most of the time and was able to defend himself intelligently.

Round 2;
Again Andreas was able to defend himself well and attacked effectively. 0.41 min, Andreas controlled Demitri in side mount then was able to mount him effectively and started raining blows. Demitri was able to escaped at 1.30 min but Andreas mounted Demitri and Demitri turns his back into turtle position. Again Andreas was in dominant position. Andreas attempted a side choke but Demitiri managed to stand up. Andreas was relentless in his attacks and kept Demitri defending.
At 3.27 min, Demitri got Andreas in a turtle position and started raining punches and even punch Andreas at the back of head at one point (3.57 min). However, they were not effective enough to put Andreas out. Demitri rolled Andreas at 4.36 min to attempt a rear naked choke but Andreas managed to get into his guard at 4.46 min. In the end, Andreas managed to gain control of the situation.

Verdict of round 2; Andreas wins. He was dominating at the first 3 min of the fight. Later, Demitri dominated by putting him in a turtle position and attempted Rear naked choke but Andreas made a reversal of the situation towards the end.

Round 3

Last round, both looked tired. However, Andreas was able to take Demitri to guard and put a lot of pressure on Demitri. Most of the action was on the ground, with Andreas in Demitri’s guard. However, at 8.28 min, Andreas passed guard into side control then into a mount putting pressure on Demitri till Demitri turns his back to Andreas. Andreas showed a lot of aggression in his attack which is a plus point. At 8.57 min, Andreas was aggressive in punching from mount position and at 9.02 min Demitri was observed to give his back to Andreas in a bid to get away from the punches briefly but managed to get Andreas into guard. At 9.33 min, Demitri managed to get Andreas but his punches were not as hard as Andreas and he also attempted a rear naked choke but Andreas managed ti move out and got into Demitri’s guard. Demitri was attacking but again his shots were not as sharp as Andreas.

Verdict of round 3: In favor of Andreas, although both were tired. Andreas was observed to be putting in more effort. He was controlling the fight most of the time. Demitri did get Andreas into trouble such as the RNC at 9.33 min onwards. However, overall Andreas was the more aggressive fighter.

Hence, Andreas should win this bout.




Regards
Aaron Koh
Contact Kinetics
Singapore

brayden said...

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to judge this fight! andreas hesselback won at the very least a split decision if not a UPD. yes demitri won a few minutes of the fight but a few minutes of a 15 minute fight is not enough to walk away with the win and as for damage cause alot of demitris strikes were to the back of the head. all in all it was a great fight put on by both fighters athlough i think the decision was incorrect.
and as for the comments about ray, some of you may have found his comments offensive but this is mma not a kids soccer match. ray is a good coach and looks after his boys and his gym

brayden

Team Nemisis mma

LUKE said...

The key here is to keep things constructive and work for the greater good for MMA in Taiwan and Southeast Asia as a whole.

Any further discussion should be with the direct parties involved and those in the position to help build a committee that can oversee the development of MMA and the education of it's refs/judges.

Let's not take away what a great fight it was for two very tough individuals that gave it their all. A congratulations as well to the coaches/teams that helped them prepare for this fight and future fights to come.

I have no doubt we will see more from both Demitri and Andreas, ready to show what accomplished athletes/sportsmen they are.

And a thanks to all that have shared their opinion, especially those that do so with their names attached.

Anonymous said...

well all shows has there "baby sickness" but i think TMC will grow in the future!
and am really happy about how they did take care of us/me :)

someone said anything about ray start complaining about money when we arrived, yes we were offered a little little amount of money for food, but in the end everyone was happy :)

Ray is a great coach, yes he is little loud but he gives everything for his teammates when they training/fighting!
lets hope for some pictures and more videos coming up soon!
hope to be back in Taiwan someday again!

/ Wiktor Svensson

Tommy said...

I am pleased to see that this thread has taken a new positive direction. No more name-calling, theories about conspiracies, or other un-constructive posts. For some of the commentators in the beginning I hope that you understand how f***ing damn stupid you look like now. I think royal explained it quite well. The world is just not divided into black and white. Why try and find a villain when we don't have one. I welcome the initiative to form a committee for educating referees and judges. Wouldn't it be because I am too busy writing research papers, and teaching graduate students about scientific methodology (in addition to spending so much time on skype trying to take over Taiwan) I would definately help out in whatever way I could (perhaps in the future). But best of luck.

Tommy

Tommy said...

Oh, and by the way, here's a link to my chain of Dojos in Taiwan:

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/tommyshih-mmabjjdojo/article?mid=33&prev=34&next=26

Tommy said...

It is kinda sad that this person ("anonymous") does not really take this discussion seriously and now you are making posts in my name. I don't mind having some advertisement for the network of dojos (TS Dojos) that me and my friends set up purely for the development of BJJ and MMA in Taiwan. If you are wondering what TS stands for it's easy, originally we thought that it would be funny to call it TS because everybody would think it is my initials, but it actually stands for "Taiwan South", although we have lately opened up an affiliation in Taipei also. But this is just a testament that our vision of spreading BJJ is growing to a larger nation-wide movement. Me and my friends wants to make BJJ and MMA accesible to also ordinary Taiwanese people (don't take me wrong other academies are also doing a great job) but we have our way. Luckily I have a great group of guys (unfortunately no girls yet) that share this vision of spreading BJJ and do this with a great enthusiasm and for no money. And might I add that it is much much cheaper to train at TS dojo than anywhere else, purely because we don't want the lack of money being an issue for the Taiwanese people. The TS dojos even let people train for free if they are interested enough in the sport. We are also about to open up a free class at a community center where there are many children coming from families that are not so priviliged. I think these kids needs some kind of direction and role-models (which hopefully me and my friends can provide) in their life and martial arts is a good way of learning about discipline). This is all public information and thanks for giving me and my friends some advertisment, but I don't know what you are trying to insinuate or stir up here. However whoever you are should use your own name and contribute something valuable to this discussion (and not re-direct it for your wish to instigate some trouble). You should at least disguise your strange attempts of creating some kind of problem in a more logical discourse. I have better things to do than to battle an anonymous keyboard warrior. So why don't you just use your energy to come with some positive feedback on what we should be talking about in this thread. You should try it! It is much more constructive. So back to the important topic - how to improve mma in Taiwan - but thanks for giving me a chance to promote the TS network.

Tommy

Anonymous said...

My coach n i went to TMT Ray Elbe n trained there prior to 1st FBT Bangkok Open in 2008.

Yes he is loud mouth, vocal, seemingly arrogant, cocky as well...but he also listens to his boys. But more importantly, he really SUPPORTS his guys/gals. he shouts out to them so that they keep figthing on and on and on till the sun goes down n up again.

And if a result seems unfair, he doesn't give up just like that but tries (fairly) to argue it out, always to be back by evidence or in this case, actual citations. I find it hard to get coaches who allows his fighters to concentrate only on the fight, but management the coach take care of it FULLY.

In any case...this is a life. Not just a job, so what do u guys expect man?! As for the MMA in Taiwan...the show must go on boys!!

Samuel

Tigermuaythai said...

We are glad that the appeals process worked.

Final conclusion:

During the investigation (step 1) after the appeal process was filed,

it was discovered that the score cards were incorrectly read, and that the wrong winner's hand was raised (Demititri). Judges voted for Andreas--->announcer raised Demitri's hand.

This bout, while it stirred a bunch of controversy, hopefully will lead to more sanctioning and a higher quality of professionalism during the promotional phases of MMA in asia.

Andreas Hesselback has officially been declared the winner of this bout, and hopefully everyone can now respect the reasons behind TMT's professional appeal.

http://www.tmcofficial.com/news.htm

Demitri Telfair/Andreas Hesselback 2 needs to take place. The first fight was amazing.

Tiger Muay Thai-will be pitching this bout to ESPN STAR for their upcoming MMA event in 2010.

LUKE said...

Royal, shoot me an e-mail at luke@bjj-asia.com

Anonymous said...

congrats ray. I think your a good coach. I saw you at the bangkok grappling games and you literally coached several people into wins. one guy was stuck in a heel hook and you coached him step by step out of the submission and helped him win by triangle choke. i was empressed.it's cool to see a coach who actually understand the managment portion of fighting. its having experienced fighters like you in the region that are going to help this sport grow.

Anonymous said...

So at the end of the day after the down-talking Ray, turns out he was right after all? LOL. Ref raised the wrong hand. Yeah, accidents like that can happen, I've seen points go up on the wrong competitors scoreboard at IBJJF tournaments.

ChadH said...

Good to see Andreas given the win. It was a good fight, but if we're going by the accepted and unified rules, total time of control/winning must be given to Andreas.